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Spike #6 Preview,Reviews,Reactions And Spoilers
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angeliclestat
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 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Maggie- Do you think that Spike's soul is better than everybody else's soul in the Buffyverse? I know that he fought for it, and that is an amazing story. But I don't buy into this whole thing of 'Spike fought for his soul therefore writers should leave his soul alone and not go messing with it because HE EARNED IT DAMMIT' - I don't see how it negates the journey he took.
If it makes a good story then do it. It doesn't make his soul any less special if it's as "detachable as Angel's". Everybodies soul is as detachable as Angel's lol.With the right magic everyone could have their soul taken away in the Whedonverse.
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Deborahmm
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for taking the time to address this, Mariah.
| Mariah wrote: | I think Spike knows the difference between right and wrong now, and had at least -some- inkling when he sought out his soul.
Otherwise he wouldn't have done that at all. His associating with Buffy made him question everything, especially after he hurt her. Earning his soul back, when he didn't have to, is at least some indication that he was aware that he was -wrong- and wanted to be better. Having that impulse at all shows a marked difference between Spike and Angel. |
I agree with your assessment about the differences between Angel and Spike. The extra burden that Angel bears of his constant struggle against an unrepentant demon is what makes him unique - ties in with his final words on the show about 'let's go to work.' It's not a struggle that ever ends, except with death.
| Mariah wrote: | | Personally, I find the reading that Angel is totally different than Angelus interesting...because part of his arc and the prophecy is about the terrible things he'll do when souled. |
Not sure I agree those things are related. I find the reading that Angel and Angelus are completely different people incomprehensible. Angel never refers to Angelus as someone else. They're one and the same to him.
| Mariah wrote: | | It's not Angelus Angel has to contend with, it's himself. |
I would agree, especially since I think Angelus is himself. But this is an argument fans have been having for years. Both sides' views on the matter are now so entrenched there's very little prospect of anyone changing their minds.
| Mariah wrote: | | Plus, Spike isn't talking about being good the -entire- time he was a vampire. He's not an idiot. But he isn't Angel, he doesn't become Mr. Hyde the second he loses his soul. Because of who he's become. It's just a different way of handling it than Angel. Because even as demons, they were different. |
Yes, I get that. My comment is more a comment on what people who dislike the character are making out of this scene in the comic rather than the scene itself. As usual, the worst spin that can be put on it has been put.
It seems clear to me now that Spike is only trying to psych himself up to deal with the situation, and I would say that his decision to ensoul Drusilla rather than himself shows that his lack of soul is already affecting his judgement. If he thought about it for one minute, he would realise that re-ensouling an insane person -someone who used to be very religious - and bringing all their guilt for 150 years of murder down on their heads was unlikely to help them much. However, I can understand why he would want to help her.
| Mariah wrote: | | To me, if we didn't deal with these differences, Spike's arc would be the arc of a mildly interesting sidekick. Unless you treat him as worthy of the same internal exploration as Buffy and Angel, he gets relegated to the smart mouthed British vamp who isn't self-reflective. And we all know that's not true. It may make for some contentious, difficult moments, but ultimately it's treating the character as equal to, not less than, any of the other main heroes. |
I appreciate that. Just wish another way to give Spike a strong storyline in his own book could have been chosen. It's unfortunate that this storyline comes hot on the heels of the Bill Willingham 'soul flu' story, which many people, including me, disliked a great deal. It leaves me with the feeling that Spike's entire storyline from IDW for the last year has consisted with various forces messing about with his soul.
Not Brian's fault, of course, and I like this storyline way, way better than Mr Willingham's, but there it is.
Thanks again for taking the time to address this.
ETA: and now I've read everyone's comments and am completely confused as to whose soul Drusilla actually has. Is it her own, or Spike's? How does that work? And more convinced than ever that Spike thinking sticking a soul in Dru is the right thing to do is evidence of his own judgement being way off because he's just lost his soul. Getting his soul back drove him crazy, what on earth does he think it's going to do to someone who is crazy already (and was crazy before she was even vamped)?
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Veiriti
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The soul balance thing does not change anything, because W&H lied to John. They just told him that to get him to go after Spike. |
Yep, I knew it from the very begging!!! Thanks for the clarification, Mariah. 
I can help with this real easy like: the soul balance is something Wolfram & Hart told a crazy person. The crazy person believed them. It doesn't mean anyone else should.
| Quote: | I think Spike knows the difference between right and wrong now, and had at least -some- inkling when he sought out his soul.
Otherwise he wouldn't have done that at all. His associating with Buffy made him question everything, especially after he hurt her. Earning his soul back, when he didn't have to, is at least some indication that he was aware that he was -wrong- and wanted to be better. Having that impulse at all shows a marked difference between Spike and Angel. |
LOVED IT  Spike always has been different then the other vampires and unlike Angel he was capable of love even without a soul!  As Joss said Spike was good even he was evil!
| Quote: | | I can help with this real easy like: the soul balance is something Wolfram & Hart told a crazy person. The crazy person believed them. It doesn't mean anyone else should. |
Thank you, Brian, you’re great! And it would be interesting to see what will happen with the souled Drusilla. Having souls made Spike and Angel insane in the beginning and it would be interesting to see what would happen with a vampire who is already insane.
Guys you’ve really calmed all my concerns about Spike’s soul troubles down. I’m looking forward my copy and I hope I’ll receive it as soon as possible.
And I had got a speculation before that W&H and Twilight are connected somehow.
Do I deserve a cigar too? Ups, I don’t smoke! I even hate the tobacco smoke/smell! So I’m choosing the hug! 
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leyki
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| janas wrote: | | I believe that nobody should stand to judge and sentence about who deserves to have a soul and who not. Why Drusilla should not have a second chance? |
Because she has never asked for it maybe?
It's like releasing a serial killer out of jail saying that he deserves a second chance when basically he has shown NO remorse and he doesn't want a second chance.
| janas wrote: | | And who says that this is a bad thing? Why she is crazy? |
Because Angel drove her crazy BEFORE siring her.
Once sired, she was still crazy.
Tha means that even with a soul now, she will still be crazy.
| janas wrote: | | For this reason we want to deny her the chance to be better? |
She has never asked to become better, she was satisfied with what she was.
| janas wrote: | | Darla with soul (and was even human) has partnered with the W & H to bring down Angel. |
Darla with a soul, was very shocked because of the spell that W&H used to bring her back. After recovering from it, she starts feeling guilty for all the crimes she had committed and seeks the help of the person closer to her:Angel, until Dru comes and sires her.
| janas wrote: | | Angel with the soul, for almost a hundred years, he wandered without direction. |
Angel does the same thing.
He goes back to the person that he feels closer, Darla, Twice.
He even tries to show her that he is bad, by killing murderers, so that she can accept him back, until she kicks him out once and for all.
He wanders for years, until he finds Buffy, he fells in love and she gives him a new purpose to live and fight for.
| Quote: | | Spike was luckier because not it was only when he got his soul. |
Spike does the same thing.
He goes back to the person he feels closer to, Buffy, and she accepts him and helps him. And yes, he was lucky.
| janas wrote: | | What is certain is that they have had different behaviors, because they are different individuals react (facing the same situation) differently. |
Their behaviors were exactly the same.
Guilt for the crimes they had been committing for years,
and seeking for help from the person they felt closer to.
| janas wrote: |
Therefore, it is probably not so much having a soul that makes the best, but the perception of a "purpose". |
The perception of a "purpose" is what helps carrying the burden of the soul.
| janas wrote: | | Darla without the soul has sacrificed to another human being and its purpose was Connor. |
But Darla wasn't without a soul.
She had her baby's soul inside her, a soul that gradually grew up inside her just like the body of her baby. And that gives her the power to start feeling again and realizing that once the baby is born, the soul will go to her baby only and she will be soulless again and she will kill her baby.
That's why she committed suicide and gave life to her baby.
| janas wrote: | | Therefore it is not enough to have a soul if not there is a purpose to live. |
It is enough to keep the vampire away from crimes, when the vampire actually wants the soul.
Because as we have seen in Angel's case, he was capable of murdering even with a soul.
| janas wrote: |
We do not know how could it be Drusilla with soul and I find it interesting to see, though I imagine that this aspect will not be explored, but I think it might be interesting. Unless you think that the existence of a crazy is devoid of purpose |
Well, we already have 3 examples, so we know how Dru will react.
She will start feeling guilty and probably seek for help from the person she feels closer. And that person is certainly NOT Spike. As proven by the series, Dru always felt closer and prefered daddy Angel than Spike.
But the problem here is that basically, Dru is insane. So, although she will have the same reaction with the other vampires, she is crazy and won't be able to find a purpose like the other vampires did.
Somebody will have to build a mental hospital just for her, and we don't know if the medication for humans work on the vampires. |
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Moscow Watcher
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| janas wrote: | | I believe that nobody should stand to judge and sentence about who deserves to have a soul and who not. Why Drusilla should not have a second chance? And who says that this is a bad thing? Why she is crazy? For this reason we want to deny her the chance to be better? Every individual is unique and unrepeatable and not there is a person equal to another. |
I agree about the second chances. But I think that in this particular situation it wasn't about second chances. It was (mostly) about saving Jeremy's life. At that particular moment Willow was seriously weakened by teleporting four persons at once. Spike was weak too - he was seriously wounded, he lost a lot of blood, and if he'd try to fight Dru, she'd easily overpowered him. The only way to stop her from killing Jeremy was ensouling her.
| Quote: | Maggie2
Is it worth cursing Dru and driving her insane to save someone? Why not just stake her instead? etc. |
We still don't know how soul will affect Dru. So far, soul+past experience invariably produced new persons. Angelus, cursed with a soul, didn't turn into Liam; he turned into a much better person. Ensouled Spike didn't turn into William; he turned into a much cooler person. So, if Dru will turn into much saner person, I won't be surprised - it will be a continuation of a trend.
On one hand, her line "I'll be a church girl" may be Dru seeing her future (she gets a soul and ends up in a convent). Maybe Joss needs a souled Dru in season 9 to introduce a Spike-centric triangle: Buffy/Spike/Dru. So far, Buffy was in the center, between Spike and Angel - maybe it's time to give her a worthy rival and make her jealous.
| Quote: | nmcil12
Still - whatever comes next for Drusilla, and I would be all happy for her to move on to something not insane or mass killer vampire, she was a great character in her former life in the TV Era. |
Frankly, I doubt that Dru will stay souled. Unless Joss has something absolutely unexpected for her, souled Dru will be too virtuous to be an interesting character. Unless the soul transforms her radically - say, turns her into River 2.0.
| Quote: | | the other female character you created from Japan that you, sorry I forgot her name, |
Tok? She's awesome.
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leyki
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| fender_love wrote: |
Actually, the fact that there's a whole race of demons that suck the souls (or even partial souls, as is Buffy's case) out of regular humans makes it seem like there's decent evidence that souls are pretty well detachable while the host of the soul remains alive without it. |
Detachable only because that race of demons have the ability.
That doesn't mean that souls are detachable though, because if they were, we would have seen plenty of examples in which demons would try to remove souls from humans.
| fender_love wrote: | | The Mayor sold his soul (sadly not for a better golf game and not just because it was slipperier than a greased weasel), and I imagine that that involved a big circle and glowy candles and some chanty-chants and POOF! No more greasy soul. |
The Mayor SOLD his soul, the soul wasn't detached away from him.
There is a difference.
| fender_love wrote: |
Speaking of light shows, didn't that demon that Giles played matchmaker for pretend to remove Angel's soul? I mean, granted he didn't actually do it, but the Mayor and Faith thought he could, so that would have just been spell = no more soul, no curse required. |
You don't remember the show very well.
Yes, that demon had that "power"
The Mayor and Faith didn't know what or how he could do it.
That demon fooled them, because as proven, we was working for Giles all along.
But, in AtS, we actually see how this "power" works.
He has the power to create illusions, so he was able to offer the perfect happiness to Angel, element ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to remove A DETACHABLE SOUL FROM A CURSED VAMPIRE.
That demon didn't have the power to remove souls or else he could have done it much more easily. He had the power to create bubbles, fantasies.
Something like this could never have worked on Spike, or on any creature with a soul, because feeling perfectly happy doesn't cost you your soul.
| fender_love wrote: |
Also, W&H can just lay claims to people's soulless corpses and even spiritual beings, so they probably have a soul-collecting department too. |
Yes, they do have. They have contracts, in which people or any kind of soul possessing creature can sold his/her soul.
So, after death, they collect the souls.
Lindsey still had a soul while working with W&H, so did Lilah. Once dead, the soul is W&H's property.
| fender_love wrote: |
There's a lot of soul-tampering going on in the 'verse. Hell, in "the Harvest," the Master says that he binds his blood and soul with Luke's blood and soul. How do they have souls? Why does Darla look so happy about all the soul talk in that scene? Does he mean the demonic essence that makes him a vampire? For creatures that should reject all notions of what a soul implies, you'd think they'd come up with a better name that wouldn't invoke the same kind of connotations that "soul" does. |
A lot of things have changed in the mythology since season 1.
BtVS was only supposed to be on air for one summer, not for 7 years.
Vampires don't have souls, Whedon changed his mythology in season 2 up until now.
| fender_love wrote: | | So, in conclusion, the idea that a regular person can lose their soul? Not new to the mythology of either show. I mean, if a kid can be born without a soul for no reason, there are soul collecting vessels, and souls can even be shared between individuals, then I can believe that this 'verse offers an endless variety of ways to remove a soul. Also, didn't Lawson believe that he partially had a soul because Angel sired him? How does that work? Do half-demons/humans have half-souls? So few concrete answers, so much possibility for debate. |
Being born without a soul, is not the same as detaching it.
The soul collecting vessel was to prevent Angel's soul lost in the air.
Darla never shared the soul the way you describe it, but the soul inside her gave her the ability to start feeling. She was still able to kill, she was still a monster, one that didn't want a "second chance".
So, she is able to feel love for her child and realize that this love will just disappear the minute she gives birth. So she decides to die before her baby's soul leaves her body because she knows that she will no longer feel anything about the baby, and kill it.
Vampire!Darla, never asked or wanted another chance. |
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leyki
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Moscow Watcher wrote: |
We still don't know how soul will affect Dru. So far, soul+past experience invariably produced new persons. Angelus, cursed with a soul, didn't turn into Liam; he turned into a much better person. Ensouled Spike didn't turn into William; he turned into a much cooler person. So, if Dru will turn into much saner person, I won't be surprised - it will be a continuation of a trend. |
Right, the soul never turned them to their human!person, because there is a continuation here.
The characters have envolved.
Angel is the person who was Liam for 25 years, a soulless vampire for another 150 and a souled one for 100 (plus another 100 in hell).
That's 375 years of life, nobody would be the same person that he was as a 25 years ond man after 350 years of living.
Ensouled Spike is the person that was William for 25-30 years, a souless vampire for 100, and a souled one for another 3(? 4, 5, not sure about the timeline)
So the continuation of the personality of Dru, will go like this.
A human for 20(?) years, a crazy human for another 1 (? or for a few months, IDK, the point is that she was totally insane before sired) and an insane soulless vampire for another 130(don't remember exactly when she was sired)
That's more than 150 years of living, being absolutely crazy the 130 of them.
It would be the most OOC thing EVER to see in the next issue a sane Drusilla, that's for sure. |
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Maggie2
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Janas: If Dru ASKED for a second chance, then sure, she deserves it. But there is no such thing as a second chance for someone who is doing what they are doing and doesn't want to stop doing what they are doing. It'd be like someone dragging Osama Bin Laden in WITH plans for the next big terrorist action and saying, let's not put him on trial, the guy deserves a second chance.
I suppose you could say Angel was given a second chance when he was cursed with the soul. But notice how it works when he loses it. That's because it wasn't something he remotely wanted.
Fender: In the technical sense, of course all souls are in play. On a story telling sense the story about loss of soul gets told about Angel all the time because his soul is particularly detachable. IDW is assuming that because Spike is a vampire it would somehow be interesting to put him through the same set of situations that Angel faced and that implies that basically they don't think the manner of acquisition matters. It's not like we've routinely had stories about Buffy nearly losing her soul. Taking Spike and putting his soul in question in back to back story lines screams that the status of Spike's soul is that of Angel's and not that of Buffy's.
Moscow: I just dont' see any organic way for a person with religious sensitivity who is already psychologically damaged to suddenly go "sane" when she gets flooded with guilt about the many very evil things she has done. But then, I don't think much of IDW's story telling is organic so maybe that's a reason to think she'll go sane.
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Moscow Watcher
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| leyki wrote: |
It would be the most OOC thing EVER to see in the next issue a sane Drusilla, that's for sure. |
*shrugs* We'll see. I admit, making her completely sane would be too... well... radical - but turning her into a new River could be interesting.
| Quote: | Maggie2
If Dru ASKED for a second chance, then sure, she deserves it. |
To quote Giles, "it's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it."
(That said, I don't think it's about second chances. It's about saving Jeremy.
| Quote: | | I just dont' see any organic way for a person with religious sensitivity who is already psychologically damaged to suddenly go "sane" when she gets flooded with guilt about the many very evil things she has done. But then, I don't think much of IDW's story telling is organic so maybe that's a reason to think she'll go sane. |
"Organic" is such a tricky word. I won't argue - after all, it's just make-believe. I just think that Joss needs somebody to make Buffy miserable in season 9 and Dru is a perfect candidate. (Yes, I'm cynical).
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leyki
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Moscow Watcher wrote: | | leyki wrote: |
It would be the most OOC thing EVER to see in the next issue a sane Drusilla, that's for sure. |
*shrugs* We'll see. I admit, making her completely sane would be too... well... radical - but turning her into a new River could be interesting.
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I believe "radical" is a very diplomatic way to characterise it.
Once Angel was cursed, he didn't radically change personality.
He was still trying to feed from people, trying to kill, and he even committed crimes. His character changed gradually.
Once Spike got back his soul, he didn't radically changed, we see in season 7 exactly the same Spike that he was before the soul.
Vampire Darla with her baby's soul inside of her, doesn't radically change, she is still the same vampire that she was before getting pregnant, the only difference is that she gradually starts having feelings as her baby's soul grows inside her. |
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cheryl
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:12 am Post subject: |
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For *me* what's great about this Universe and it's characters? It doesn't matter how it was for Angel opposed to Spike. Angel isn't Spike anymore than Buffy is Faith. So, in that respect, it won't matter how it happened for Spike or Darla opposed to what could happen for Dru. Those other characters aren't Dru. Just like Spike's story right now is NOT being about Angel but rather being unique to him, I would imagine a story centered around Dru having a soul that Spike wanted her to have will be about Dru and Spike and their trials with the situation. Personally I think it's brilliant and can pretty much say without a doubt that NOBODY saw it coming, which is priceless.
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Jean-Vic
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Deborahmm wrote: |
| Mariah wrote: | | Personally, I find the reading that Angel is totally different than Angelus interesting...because part of his arc and the prophecy is about the terrible things he'll do when souled. |
Not sure I agree those things are related. I find the reading that Angel and Angelus are completely different people incomprehensible. Angel never refers to Angelus as someone else. They're one and the same to him.
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Yeah, to Angel. Angel sees himself as Angelus. Course he does. He has the memories of everything and obviously feels guilt, but was it him doing them?
Angelus seems to consider himself very different to Angel. Angelus sees them as two distinct people. Angel refers to self. Angelus refers to Angel. Angel was around when Jasmine destroyed all knowledge of the Beast. So, if Angel and Angelus are truly one mind, why did Angelus remember what Angel could not?? Why did the judge say Angelus had no humanity whereas Spike "reeked" of it??
Way I've always looked at Angel and Angelus is a schizophrenic without medication. A schizophrenic without medication has the potential to hurt people. He does. Put him back on medication and he is not susceptible any more. He isn't responsible for the deaths he caused, but he sure as hell feels the guilt of what "he" did.
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Deborahmm
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Jean-Vic wrote: |
Way I've always looked at Angel and Angelus is a schizophrenic without medication. A schizophrenic without medication has the potential to hurt people. He does. Put him back on medication and he is not susceptible any more. He isn't responsible for the deaths he caused, but he sure as hell feels the guilt of what "he" did. |
Yeah, but he's still the same person.
Not going to argue the toss with you again, Jean-Vic, because I know we'll never agree. I just don't think Angel's story makes any sense if he's going around feeling guilty for something an entirely different person did. Apart from that one incident in season 4 you cite, which I think is plot-driven only, Angel nowhere differentiates himself from Angelus, and why would he? Angelus is him without a soul.
That's it, as far as I'm concerned. There's a whole thread dedicated to this argument way back in the archives. Nothing that was said in that thread made me change my mind, and I'm sure nothing you read did either. Let's leave it there.
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Deborahmm
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| cheryl wrote: | | Personally I think it's brilliant and can pretty much say without a doubt that NOBODY saw it coming, which is priceless. |
Heh! I think if you look around the various fan boards, you'll find that an awful lot of people saw it coming.
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Double Dutchess
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Deborahmm wrote: | | It's unfortunate that this storyline comes hot on the heels of the Bill Willingham 'soul flu' story, which many people, including me, disliked a great deal. It leaves me with the feeling that Spike's entire storyline from IDW for the last year has consisted with various forces messing about with his soul. |
In practice I liked the way Spike's soul loss has been handled much better than I expected when I read the first spoilers, but this is what mostly bothers me about it too. I'm not of the opinion that Spike's soul should be any less detachable than anybody else's, but I would have preferred it to be left alone for a while after the whole soul flu fiasco. (Sorry for choosing such a harsh word, but that's how I experienced it. No insults intended.) And though I appreciate Spike's soul loss as a way of contrasting his reaction to it to Angel's, I'm not sure if that does it for me as a sufficient reason to go there for Spike too.
| Quote: | | ETA: and now I've read everyone's comments and am completely confused as to whose soul Drusilla actually has. Is it her own, or Spike's? |
That's what I'd like to know too. But I'm not convinced that giving the soul to Drusilla was a result of affected judgement because of Spike's soul loss. He needed to do very quick thinking, and I can completely understand that he judged Drusilla to be the best candidate around. He didn't really have the opportunity to think through how it might affect her.
| leyki wrote: | | janas wrote: | | I believe that nobody should stand to judge and sentence about who deserves to have a soul and who not. Why Drusilla should not have a second chance? |
Because she has never asked for it maybe?
It's like releasing a serial killer out of jail saying that he deserves a second chance when basically he has shown NO remorse and he doesn't want a second chance. |
The big difference being that with the soul, Drusilla is no longer the same serial killer that she was without it. Releasing a regular human serial killer out of prison will not make him feel remorse; providing Drusilla with a soul will. And I wholeheartedly agree with Moscow Watcher's Giles quote.
| Enisy wrote: | | One more thing, though: what was that about Drusilla's lucidity eventually coming to make sense? It doesn't. She didn't have a soul in the beginning of this series |
When I read the first spoilers I also thought that the explanation for her relative sanity was that she'd had a soul all this time, so I was surprised when it turned out not to be the case. I guess the sense-making on that point is still forthcoming. (There will sure be a lot to explain in the last two issues. The story wasn't very dense at the start of the series but it looks like the last issues will more than make up for that.) |
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