IDW Publishing Forums

[Angelrama]

Hey all,


This weeks episode is Season 5 episode 6 - The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinquo

You can find the episode description at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cautionary_Tale_of_Numero_Cinco
_________________

This is very much a love it or hate it episode so I am looking forward to hearing what people think
_________________
Personally...I kinda wanna slay the dragon...Let's go to work!

[Shin]

It's not that it's such a bad episode, it's just that it's so useless and fills a place in which a amazing episode could have been.

[Moscow Watcher]

I vaguely remember reading some Jeffrey Bell interview where he told that he had the idea of making a story about "luchadores" for a long time and wanted to use it in The X-Files, but couldn find appropriate arc. The connection with Shanshu prophecy looks a bit far-fetched, but, for me, the episode works emotionally, either because of beautiful music, or because of the final twist (dead heroes help alive ones but can't save their brother) which neatly applies to Spike and Angel's situation.
_________________

[Deborahmm]

I think it's a great episode - very, very important for Angel as a character.

Here's my review, which really doesn't do it justice.

I should really have written down my thoughts immediately because while I was watching it, I was telling myself this was obviously a Very Important episode and I've forgotten loads of stuff already. Again, it was one that wasn't highly thought of when it first aired, as I recall, but which improves on subsequent viewings.

It reiterates something has been one of the major themes of the show since Epiphany in season 2, which is that Angel should go on fighting the good fight not for any hope of reward but because it’s the right thing to do, even when no one knows he's done it. That is in fact what Angel says to Numero Cinco at the wrestling ring, more or less repeating what he says to Kate in Epiphany and what he said to Spike in very different circumstances in Hellbound.

However, at this stage Angel doesn't really believe it himself any more. He's just going through the motions and it's no wonder Numero Cinco gets fed up of listening to him and walks away. I think by the end, though, Angel does believe it again– at least he wants to – which is why he wants another look at the Shanshu Propehcy; after seeing what happened to Numero Cinco – that he was forgiven by his brothers and died a hero –he has tentative hope for himself again too.

Of course, it's a matter of opinion whether the final fight in the alley in NFA mirrors the Hermanos Numeros' fight against the Aztec demon or whether it's in fact an act of despair, though of course one could say that doesn't matter. It's the actual fighting that matters – the being willing to go into battle.

Anyway, Angel sees a lot of himself in the fate of Numero Cinco and the end of Numero Cinco's story does lift his spirits a bit, which is something considering how down he's been.

Spike is down too, of course. In fact, he's pretty much reached rock-bottom. He's obviously bored out of his skull and no longer believes in his own heroism either. When Fred tells him he ought to know what being a champion is like, he disagrees, saying he didn't do much, just stood there and let the fire come. It takes Fred reminding him that he saved her life to make him feel he's worth anything at all.

Of course, Wesley soon brings him down to earth again when he tells him that the Shanshu Prophecy can't apply to a vampire with a soul who happens to be a ghost. It's a bit of a slap in the face really and I think Spike is actually rather hurt. He doesn't cover very well either. However, you can't fault Wesley for being loyal to Angel.

Spike does manage to get in a few witty one-liners, though, including calling Angel a drama queen twice (I don't think anyone would disagree) and he manages to solve the mystery of how to kill the Aztec demon so, like Angel, he's not doing quite as badly as he thinks he is.

Gunn continues to be Mr Scary Super-Competent Lawyer. He's having the time of his life – so much so that I think everyone is rattled by it. However, he does contribute to Wesley's efforts to buck Angel up by telling Wesley that Angel feels 'disconnected', which leads Wesley to give Angel a pep talk about holding on to hope and to Angel then – rather bizarrely – explaining why he puts no faith in prophecies.

I suppose he must have forgotten exactly what Wesley would have forgotten.

Anyway, there's a lot to enjoy in this episode. I love the flashbacks and the Mexican wrestling and the music. Here are a few minor things:

Spike's intervention to make everyone think Angel's been beating up the helpless old mailman is hilarious, as is Lorne's gleeful attempt to turn that into something positive by using it to menace any remaining employees who might be thinking of causing trouble.

Fred and Spike are cute together. It's so nice that he has a friend. Aww!

Angel spends an awful lot of time looking confused in this episode. It's sweet. Also, I think this is the first episode this season where no one gets naked.
_________________
Aargh! 'Shippers! There goes the neighbourhood.

[Shade of Pale]

[Shade of Pale]

[Kana]

I think Deborahmm said all I would have said. I definately agree that Angel is sliding down the dangerous slope of being the existential hero.

Angel asks why Number 5 stopped caring and indeed it parallels with Angel himself. During the mission he lost some of the the people closest to him, Connor and Cordy.

What I also liked is how Angel feels disconnected and Spike mocks him.

Spike: Oooh I feel disconnected. Try being a bloody ghost.

Angel's problem is worst then Spike's even though he's very corporeal. It's like a continuation of Hellbound. Spike's problem is literal whilst Angel's is figurative.

I agree with Fred about Spike but it proves that he's alot more insecure than he comes across and we see this from Buffy as well. It's nice to be able to relate to Spike now and again because it don't happen often with me. Everyone needs reassurance now and then and Spike's no different and it's nice to see him have it for a change.

I also believe that the Shanshu isn't really the issue. Wesley uses the word hope and hope can mean anything to with Angel's future regarding the mission, it's not limited to the Shanshu. His heart has to be in it. His speech in Epiphany was fine but as Deb said he has to believe it.

Final thoughts.

I too loved Spike's comments in this ep, very funny.

"The geriatric community will be soiling their nappies when they hear you're on the case"

Number 5: ....and we helped the helpless.
Angel: I know a little something about that.

Angel getting nostalgic.

[Jean-Vic]

I think this was a very Angel focused Ep, which I was happy to see. I am a firm believer that the majority of episodes should be about the main character, whether it be Angel or Buffy. I am a supporter of one off eps that advance other characters, but there were too many of these in Season 5. The other seasons focused on Angel's development and the others developed around him, or in a one off focus episode for themselves. Season 5 lacked Angel progression IMO and focused more on the development of Wesley, Gunn, Illyria and Spike, which is why it is my least favourite.

Now, back to the episode: I can understand why it is unpopular. It is slow paced and it is deep with the talking. One of the fundamentals of Angel and Buffy was action and deep character development. Usually these two intermix and add to each other but that didn't seem to be the case in this one. But it is actually one of the episodes I liked in Season 5 because of its parallels to Angel. He has sacrificed so much, lost so much but still he fights. He is of course going to get disillusioned, and who can blame him, with his fight and he needs help sometimes. He lost his main form of help and guidance when Cordelia became comatose and he is left to just wallow without any help from the others who are wrapped up in other things. The story of Cinco shows to Angel that no matter what he's done or how many sins he has comitted, he can be redeemed one day. If he fights, and for the right reason (Angel has always done that anyway), he will achieve it one day. He just needs to have the faith and persistence of numero cinco to carry on, and never give up fighting.

May I also draw attention to another parallel between Angel and Cinco. Cinco started working at W+H when he lost his brothers, his loved ones. Angel became CEO when he lost Connor and Cordelia. Both "swapped" sides when they lost those that they loved more than any other, and both felt it would hinder their redemption. Turns out, it didn't for Cinco. Will it for Angel, considering he signed the shanshu away?

Another interesting thing I found was Spike. Usually he is all hard man, nothing fazes him kind of guy, yet here we see he is clearly disillusioned by his situation. I know others have drawn attention to this, but the interesting thing for me is this: Angel has suffered for 100+years and lost a hell of a lot. Spike has "suffered" for just over 1 year and lost two things and already he is disillusioned. I just find it interesting that the guy who is famed for taking it on the chin and not letting it bother him, as opposed to the one who dwells on it and never moves on, gets disillussioned far earlier in his walk than Angel does. That tells me that Spike is weaker than he makes out, even weaker mentally than Angel, and that he needs just as much help and guidance, if not more, than Angel. Perhaps that is why he goes to the older, more experienced ensouled vampire in Hellbound. Perhaps he needs Angel more than he will admit.

Also, Spike discovering how to beat the enemy was a reflection of his strength. Spike is not an intellectual. He is rather stupid whe it coems to the knowledge side of things, yet he has an unrivalled connection to the world and emotions etc etc. Angel may be one of the smartest characters in the verse, even smarter than Wesley (by his own admission), but intelligence isn't always the answer. Sometimes, instinct and emotional connection are the key. This is also mirrored in Damage. Spike's instinct and connection failed him twice, yet Angel was able to think, plan and strategise his way to defeating Dana when Spike couldn't.
_________________
I'm so glad I'm an Asshole!

[BrianLynch]

You should shorten all your posts to "you know who don't like? Spike."

[Jean-Vic]

You should shorten all your posts to say, "I only post to disagree with Jean-Vic because I have to say the company line for Joss. I couldn't possibly form an opinion of my own."

Oh and where in there do I say I dislike Spike. I am praising the episode for goodness' sake and saying what I liked. I was also praising that aspect of Spike's character, that he has weaknesses and vulnearbilities that contradct his tough, brash exterior. It makes his character more interesing for me.

I was also praising him on his ability to sense things through his emotional connection and stating that sometimes that is needed over intelligence. Not one bad word against Spike by my reckoning.

I can see why you wouldn't understand that, though. It's a little difficult for your single brain cell to digest. Shame for you.
_________________
I'm so glad I'm an Asshole!

[BrianLynch]

Just for that, I'm double-killing Angel! So nanny nanny boo boo.

Oh, and I post a lot more than responses to you. In fact, I've stopped reading threads because your negativity craps it up. I'd-a-wager if you stopped posting, I'd post more. So again, nanny nanny boo boo.

[Jean-Vic]

And yet more evidence of your stupidity and infantile behaviour. I swear, are all yanks as pathetic as you? Nanny nanny boo boo?? How old are you?? And what is it with you and interpreting my posts wrong? Are you deficient or something?? I mean, my first set of posts were apparently threats, and now all my other posts are negative. Wow. Dude, you might wanna get the creator of this site to change the name to IDW Retard Forums, because apart from a few, that's all I've seen here. Retards following retards. Never leads anywhere good.
_________________
I'm so glad I'm an Asshole!

[BrianLynch]

First of all, changing the name to IDW Retard Forum is not only offensive but it also really limits who can post here. Why would we want to change the name to that? You're just not thinking.

As for me being infantile and stupid, well, I did write a book that you liked, so what does that say about you? I guess it means you can still post here if IDW changes the name to your suggestion.

[Nata]

Whew, people, chill out. Where is a moderator when you need one?
I thought we were discussing episodes here, not other posters.

Anyway. Love the episode, despite its flaws. It has mythical, fairy tale feeling to it which I adore. It's kinda an experiment, not a grand one like the musical or the mappet show, but it worked for me. I'll write a detailed review in a day or two.
_________________
Say it quick and say it loud: I'm a geek and I am proud!

[Deborahmm]