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Marthor
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 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: GI Joe should be "timeless"/ No aging and avoid dy |
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GI Joe characters should be in a timeless universe. The characters should be updated to modern equipment and modern events, but not age themselves. This is how James Bond is done. James Bond is always 35 yrs old, but he's been around for decades and decades.
DDP started off on the wrong track having the characters aged near retirement at the beginning of their run. They later abandoned that and went timeless in the middle of their run. IDW can start off timeless right from the beginning. 
As far as "deaths", DDP went over the top on that....way over the top. GI Joe is a suspention in time with infinate room to add to the story. Having main character deaths only kills part of the story and disrupts the suspension in time. Death is a very, very linear finality and main character deaths should be largely avoided in a timeless universe. (e.g. - James Bond will never die)
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Marthor
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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One more thing about a "timeless" philosophy...
avoid dating material. No references to the Vietnam War for example. Instead, you make it a Southeast Asia conflict which could be at any time. Hasbro & DDP are pretty much on board with doing this type of timeless universe thing now, so just want IDW to be onboard too.
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Bleak5170
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: Re: GI Joe should be "timeless"/ No aging and avoi |
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| Marthor wrote: | GI Joe characters should be in a timeless universe. The characters should be updated to modern equipment and modern events, but not age themselves. This is how James Bond is done. James Bond is always 35 yrs old, but he's been around for decades and decades.
DDP started off on the wrong track having the characters aged near retirement at the beginning of their run. They later abandoned that and went timeless in the middle of their run. IDW can start off timeless right from the beginning.
As far as "deaths", DDP went over the top on that....way over the top. GI Joe is a suspention in time with infinate room to add to the story. Having main character deaths only kills part of the story and disrupts the suspension in time. Death is a very, very linear finality and main character deaths should be largely avoided in a timeless universe. (e.g. - James Bond will never die) |
Agreed. I never liked having all my favourite Joes well into their forties. |
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Fyrefly
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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They should be completely reinvented and updated. The conflict of choice for the last fifteen to twenty years has been the Middle East, and that will likely be a conflict of choice for some time to come (if not the focus of Armageddon).
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Last edited by Fyrefly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Marthor
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Fyrefly wrote: | | They should be completely reinvented and updated. The conflict of choice for the last fifteen to twenty years has been the Middle East, and that will likely be a conflict of choice for some time to come (if not the focus of Armageddon). |
I agree with all of that. GI Joe should often find themselves in the Middle East in Badhistan or Trucial Abysma or whatever. Take story ideas right out of the news headlines! This will make the stories more relevant and compelling and is a tactic used by some of the best written TV show scripts like Battlestar Galactica and 24.
Extensive Enterprises vying for control of oil fields and MARS working arms deals in the Middle East (badhistan or whatever) is all so right!!
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Fyrefly
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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I meant changing it from Vietnam/SE Asia to the Middle East/SW Asia.
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Last edited by Fyrefly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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michaelpatrick
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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While I agree that the Joes should remain timeless there are still some positives about aging them just a little. For example, Bazooka. I thought it added to his character that he became out of shape and had to work hard to get back to being his old self again. That happens to people everyday and added a bit of realism to his personality. No, I don't want to see old geezers running around with walkers and wheechairs, but they should age at least a little. It's comic book time, you can stretch it as far as you want and still make things believable.
I do have to disagree on there being no deaths in the Joe world, though. Again, it is a comic about war. People do die and I like to see that aspect of the comic. I think it presents an opportunity for a little bit of shock factor as well. When characters die and it is done right and unexpected it only adds to the stories. I mean, what do you expect? For everything to be solved and tied up all squeaky clean by the end of the comic with a safety message for kids at the end? How is that G.I. Joe?
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Fyrefly
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| michaelpatrick wrote: | While I agree that the Joes should remain timeless there are still some positives about aging them just a little. For example, Bazooka. I thought it added to his character that he became out of shape and had to work hard to get back to being his old self again. That happens to people everyday and added a bit of realism to his personality. No, I don't want to see old geezers running around with walkers and wheechairs, but they should age at least a little. It's comic book time, you can stretch it as far as you want and still make things believable.
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Bazooka was out of shape because the premise of the story had him as being out of the military leading a largely sedentary life. While it's true that people actively serving in the service do tend to get a bit more out of shape as they get older, it's not widespread by any means. If you're starting from scratch, none of these dudes should be out of shape. The concept and story of GI Joe is a covert/black-ops unit with its operators largely coming from existing special operations, combat, and intel units. Spec-ops personnel are NOT out of shape, though I've seen a couple of grizzled old SF Master Sergeants that had a slight beer belly going on. A command that allows a modest amount of fat people is a command that fails its soldiers, fails its parent unit and its service, fails the nation and fails its mission. Now, if you've got returning veterans who've been out for a while, as was the case with Bazooka and the relaunching of GI Joe after years of being closed, that's a different story.
| michaelpatrick wrote: | | I do have to disagree on there being no deaths in the Joe world, though. Again, it is a comic about war. People do die and I like to see that aspect of the comic. I think it presents an opportunity for a little bit of shock factor as well. When characters die and it is done right and unexpected it only adds to the stories. I mean, what do you expect? For everything to be solved and tied up all squeaky clean by the end of the comic with a safety message for kids at the end? How is that G.I. Joe? |
There's a difference in plot devices where main or support characters die, and then just having ridiculous glory-killing for the sake of having people die to shock people. I'm not impressed by the latter because there was far too much blatant STUPIDITY going on with Devil's Due and their moronic decisions to axe people, and the former should be used sparingly - the purpose of a main character is to tell the story. A main character's death should BE the story, not be a justification for telling a good story. When you start picking off characters for the sake of sales, it's because your writers suck and your editors don't know what they're doing. This should result in real-world firing, not weapons firing on cartoon characters.
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michaelpatrick
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, meaningless deaths aren't good for the stories, but some folks are acting like there should be NO deaths in G.I. Joe, and I just can not agree with that. Deaths add to the story, make things a little more interesting. No, I agree there shouldn't be a death for the sake of nothing better to write, but they do add. I am in the minority but I think Lady Jaye's death was good. It added to Flint's character. At the end of the day it is only a comic (my absolute favorite comic!!) and I just want to be entertained. Sometimes killing off certain characters is entertaining. It adds to the soap opera effect.
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Marthor
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| michaelpatrick wrote: | | I am in the minority but I think Lady Jaye's death was good. It added to Flint's character. |
I think it ruined Flint's character turning him into a bitter no good. Lady Jaye's death was a terrible/horrible move all around.
If there is a death (rarely), then it best be a very heroic death and well told story. The premis that deaths should be shock/accidental/meaningless and often because it's "realistic war" is a BS premis for GI Joe, IMO. We all know that the character dies only because the writer picks them on their whim, so you're not going to pull off any "real war" credibility anyway. So, if the writer is going to go there, then they're on an extra hot-seat to make it worthwhile. DDP never did that. All DDP's deaths were shock/accidental/meaningless and often and not real war either nor a sales boost. Gah! uhg!
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Phil Kost
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Based on Hasbro's current track record, I would expect to see no Joes ever die, Cobra Commander running an army of BATs, so that we never see a real person die and of course GI Joe always winning....
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Fyrefly
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Lady Jaye's death - the concept and the storyline and the aftermath - was one of the dumbest moves ever made. I mean, the death of Superman was a good story. And it was obvious the dude was coming back to life or at least there was a possibility of it. With a military-fantasy comic based largely on reality, that wasn't going to happen.
I'm all for death when it tells a story or advances a storyline. I'm not for the death of main or even popular second-string support characters, just for the sake of shocking people and getting a few extra thousand forum posts. DDP's track record is in the negative from this stupid move as one out of many. I'm tempted to imagine the DDP creative team sitting around a table drawing names out of a hat once they read their Profits & Losses report and realized their brilliant strokes of genius were tanking the comic.
I understand that people die in combat. I'm no stranger to it on a very real and personal level. I'm not against it in comic format. But the reality of the situation is, it's NOT good storytelling to kill indiscriminately. The Marvel issue where the SAW Viper killed off a number of Joes was a hallmark issue because of that. It was hallmark because it simply wasn't ever done before, and because it didn't become par for the course.
That's something DDP seemed to have forgotten in their quest to horribly maim and maul the GI Joe property just to try and make a buck.
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Straight-Edge
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Joined: 30 Jan 2008
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Fyrefly wrote: | | Lady Jaye's death - the concept and the storyline and the aftermath - was one of the dumbest moves ever made. |
Quoted for truth.
That it was hyped for months before, that it followed a string of meaningless fourth-string, one-panel murders, and that it happened too quickly, written so poorly, that they had to include a back-up tale in the trade to sell the concept that a small shard of metal in her midsection could kill her instantly...
The aftermath (Flint's downward spiral and the non-story of how he came back from it) was the least of the problems I have with that storyline.
In my personal world, I just accept that the Red Shadows abducted her at the same time 'Cobra Commander' was freed from Blackwater Prison, and had her replaced by a doppleganger. The plan was for Dela Eden to kill the doppleganger, drive Flint over the edge, and net them a strong new recruit while simultaneously siphoning info about GIJoe from Jaye. Both Flint and Jaye refused to work with them, and when WWIII decimated the Red Shadow's forces, Lady Jaye escaped and made her way back to the Joes. |
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Rockhammer
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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LOL, Straight-Edge... now who was giving me a hard time about wishing that the DDP stories happened in an alternate timeline? 
I seem to remember something about blinking and making it so only for me... LOL
BTW, missed you at the NY Comic Con. I'm going to the Joe con in Dallas, send me an e-mail if you want me to pick anything up for you.
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SkyWarpPro
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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I love real-time passing but with people not getting older with only exception being people such as Billy.
The Hardy Boys have done it for years. They even talk about how things have happened so many years ago, but they are still the same age. |
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