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Commander Shockwav
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denyer wrote:
Commander Shockwav wrote:
they are some of the greatest comics out there overall.

I'd question the judgement of anyone who's putting TF comics (any TF comics, for that matter) up against Watchmen, Sandman, etc. Sure, to an extent those are overrated, but they're operating on several entire other levels to Budiansky's "70s adventure pulp" style.

We all have stuff we read/watch/listen to for simple fun, but placing them on a pedestal just invites comparison -- and there's a lot of good writing out there.


I have read the Watchmen and think its the most overrated comic tale of all time. Yes, it is well done as an allegory-heavy work of literature, something worthy of study in a class of college-level literature. But if these are the grounds by which it is to be judged, then compare it to The Scarlet Letter and the like. It is a different animal from a simple Transformers tale altogether.

What I'm saying is, as a comic seeking to achieve that which it intends, Warrior School and Repeat Performance get the job done in spades. It's no Watchmen, but then, it's not intended to be. I look at the art. I look at the story for it's time (the 80's). And find it to be one of the best comic tales out there. The pencilling by William Johnson is as good as it gets, the coloring by Baker is phenomenal, and Bob out does himself. My friend, not having ever read any TF tales but everything else under the sun got a hold of those, and loved them. By the way, he too loved the Watchmen and hails it as one of the greatest comics ever written.
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Denyer
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commander Shockwav wrote:
if these are the grounds by which it is to be judged, then compare it to The Scarlet Letter and the like. It is a different animal from a simple Transformers tale altogether.

It's a well-written comic (with or without the supplementary prose.) After a couple of decades of writers using the medium to tell stories that don't have to all be suitable for youngsters there's a good range of them out there, and they don't tend to be the straight cape books or tie-in titles.

I don't particularly like Watchmen, personally, ditto V for Vendetta -- both had guessable plots and the latter is very derivative of 1984. Watchmen (along with titles such as Dark Knight Returns) was originally published at a time when the plot twists were revolutionary... now they're recycled norms. (For a story that's aged better and doesn't have to be read in the context of when it was produced, MiracleMan is worth the effort to track down.)

If we're comparing Transformers to prose, I'd say it stacks up against Trek novels. The bulk is like the first run of Original Series titles, and occasionally you'll get a Sarek or a Spock's World. Even then archetypes tend to substitute for characterisation, but they're emotionally affecting and imaginative.

Transformers largely doesn't have characters, the page space only allowing potted descriptions and a few lines of dialogue that people hold up as being great by contrast with the rest. Actual development's quite rare -- Soundwave in the UK comics, Grimlock in the US moving through to G2, Zarak and Prime bonding, etc.

Viz and Dennis the Menace achieve what they intend to do, but that doesn't make them well-written.

Quote:
the coloring by Baker is phenomenal

Fairly standard inking for the time, compensating for the deficiencies of US colour printing. The detail on characters, particularly facial detail and particularly on the Dinobots, comes and goes between panels.


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Commander Shockwav
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Viz and Dennis the Menace achieve what they intend to do, but that doesn't make them well-written.


"Warrior School" and "Repeat Performance" is not the cookie-cutter classic tale of 'brain over brawn'. What makes this tale so enticing to me is that, in the end, 'brain' actually fails, and it is luck, not skill, that saves the day. To me, that was a nice twist. Most writers would have had Ratchet actually take Megs off the cliff, or something along those lines. Instead, Megs actually surprises all by taking out the Dinobots single-handedly (which makes sense, as Shockwave almost did it himself. See the consistency here?) and makes a fool out of Ratchet's last attempt to carry them over the cliff. That panel with Megs smiling is firmly etched in my mind as the greatest pic of Megatron ever.

Quote:
the inking by Baker is phenomenal

Quote:
Fairly standard inking for the time, compensating for the deficiencies of US colour printing. The detail on characters, particularly facial detail and particularly on the Dinobots, comes and goes between panels.


[/quote]

Standard inking? You gotta be kidding me. It's the inking that made this artwork first class stuff.

Just look at the action in those panels above. Tell me one TF artist, aside from Roche, that has been able to capture action sequences like Johnson does to date? Okay, Senior can too, but no where nearly as effective as Johnson does here. Best. TF art. Ever. [/i]
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Denyer
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commander Shockwav wrote:
Okay, Senior can too, but no where nearly as effective as Johnson does here. Best. TF art. Ever.

Not. A. Chance. That's nostalgia talking. Look at the way the Dinobot heads change from panel, the disproportionate limbs and body on Snarl right there, lack of detail on the body and simple one-side shadowing.

We have TF artists now who can design and carry detail consistently through a story, rather than squish pre-existing models up to fit them into a frame. Best of this era is probably Studio Ox.



Quote:
in the end, 'brain' actually fails, and it is luck, not skill, that saves the day.

It's certainly a relatively rare step towards realism in a kid comic, and arguably as good as Transformers got. It's backed even within the same story with Soundwave pulling a standard florid exposition spiel, and the origin of Circuit Breaker (even more technologically infeasible than alien transforming robots.)

The "hero tries desperate last stand, it doesn't work and then they luck out and it does" has been a staple of TV scripts (particularly science fiction, Trek again covering those bases) for decades. It's better than many comics, but that's almost damning with faint praise.

edit:

More basic inconsistencies, such as vanishing detail and perspective --



I like the story, but it isn't all that and a bag of crisps.
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Grimlock79
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

US collected trades: Matrix Quest, Primal Scream, End of the Road and whatever came before it since I'm drawing a total blank on that one (though i've read and re-read it a million and one times now)
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Silverdeck
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like all of the UK stuff, even the hokier entries, I do love Time Wars though as it really caught my attention.

Excellent stuff.



Denyer I appreciate where you are coming from with the analysis of the art but sometimes I like the more unrealistic but more dynamic aspects of comic art.
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Denyer
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I love Senior, and he's almost all style over realism. He's also generally consistent and careful with limb proportions and shading/crosshatch, particularly within a story from panel-to-panel.

In his earliest stuff, such as the first time he shows up to draw Target: 2006, there's a lot of exaggeration of the same type Roche tends towards, but he's settled down by the time it gets to the Magnus/Galvatron fight. Even in the more throwaway of the black-and-white stories, things rarely leap out at you as too large or small for a character.
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Commander Shockwav
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denyer wrote:
Oh, I love Senior, and he's almost all style over realism.


So Senior gets an artistic license, but William Johnson doesn't?

So what if they don't look the same from panel to panel, the movement is captured better than anywhere else in TF comic lore. Senior included.

Quote:
The "hero tries desperate last stand, it doesn't work and then they luck out and it does" has been a staple of TV scripts (particularly science fiction, Trek again covering those bases) for decades. It's better than many comics, but that's almost damning with faint praise.


Someone said there are only like, what, fourteen original stories that exist? So 7 and 8 are similar to something, but what story matches it in all the TF comics that have been released to date?

By the way, where are you getting those images? I want to use some to support my argument here.
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Denyer
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commander Shockwav wrote:
So Senior gets an artistic license, but William Johnson doesn't?

I'm not asking for realism — I'm asking for proportion, consistency, and for detail that's used on characters to be transferred from panel to panel. Basic stuff.

Commander Shockwav wrote:
the movement is captured better than anywhere else in TF comic lore. Senior included.

Again, nostalgia.

Quote:
Someone said there are only like, what, fourteen original stories that exist?

Structuralist literary critics — currently still doing a brisk educational trade over in Eastern Europe, actually. Categorisation systems like this are more arbitrary than they can seem (and than they claim) — there's inevitably overlap and often a catch-all category added discreetly to the enumeration; the aim being to build a sort of literary magic decoder ring. Vladimir Propp was very big on this — looking at his repertoire of 31 functions, you can pick a few out and reduce any story to such references.

Quote:
what story matches it in all the TF comics that have been released to date?

Transformers rarely moves beyond "the good guys win because they're the good guys". Rarely there are clear Decepticon victories, such as the end of Dinobot Hunt. Being relatively original in the context of TF fiction is, again, not saying an awful lot.

Quote:
By the way, where are you getting those images?

If I could be bothered (and felt like breaking the bindings on a scanner plate) I'd be scanning them in fresh from the trades — but most people who were around the fandom before the Titan books came out and had access to a fast connection once or twice will have a reasonably full set of scans. They aren't online page-by-page any more, but if you check out a few file-sharing networks or interrogate Google you can probably still find CBR/CBZ packages easily. Or most of the Marvel US volumes can be picked up cheap by shopping around; stacks of the things were remaindered in the UK a few years back.

What panels do you want?
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AndyTurnbull
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To second Denyer - Miracleman is probably the best of the much lauded material of the 80's and worth finding.

I would still say that I enjoyed the Johnson/Baker combo above all else, but that's my personal taste. But there are flaws in the work - have a look at the differences between Warrior School and Repeat Performance. Warrior School is pretty consistent all the way through, the latter pages of Repeat Performance look rushed, whether it's deadline pressures or Kyle Baker looking to embellish the last few pages as opposed to just inking them but they are not as good as earlier on.

Geoff Senior is one of the definitive artists on Transformers but he has the advantage in terms of his body of work as opposed to Johnson/Baker. There is definitely a consistency to his work - Senior's work is recognisably Senior even on the rare occasions that he is being inked by someone else. Bizarrely enough I think his best work was his first full unassisted job on Crisis of Command Part 2 (Kev Hopgood helped out on inks on Part 1).

Andy
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Commander Shockwav
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denyer wrote:

What panels do you want?


Do you have the one where the Dinobots first attack Megatron, where he is being hit in the gut by Slag and he's sort of keeling over in the wake of the Dinobots combined assault?

Also, the panel where Megatron is being squirted in the face by a supine Ratchet with his medical gobbly gook, while Megatron is looking up and laughing?

And the one face shot of Megatron with that big steely grin?

In fact, if you have that whole battle with Megs, that would be great.

And it's not nostalgia. That battle between Ratchet/Dinobots and Megs reads more like a motion picture than any TF comic to date.

I wish Don or Nick could give us their two cents on this topic. I'd like to hear their critique of 7 and 8 given their experience.
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Denyer
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Snarl fares particularly badly in all three panels of art he's in here.



Of them all, the shot from Warrior School shows far more proficient use of depth and spatial awareness, and the panel a page before of Megs leaning over Ratchet is one I'd consider a classic, even if he does have a stunted back leg.



Dreamwave weren't the first to ignore the extent to which perspective can be compressed...
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Commander Shockwav
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, you're good.

How the hell you get these things, in the time you get it, is really something to be marvelled at. All TF websites could use a Denyer.

Anyway, back to the discussion. Here's what I'm talking about. Look at that third page on the second row above, the one where Ratchet is thinking. See how Johnson captures each emotion without sacrificing the metallic nature of Ratchet? Genius. He shows Ratchet thinking to himself, somewhat distant from the unfolding events, by having him look down and away. Most artists would have had him look straight head, aghast at Megatron with the same thought bubble. Just that small detail is enough to tell you the story, without the exposition and dialogue. Then, look at the same size panel just below it, with the same Ratchet head, but exuding a totally different emotion: that of resolve, like he's made up his mind and is going full speed ahead with it. Again, no words necessary, the art tells the story. Beautiful.

Then, the next panel with Ratchet ramming into Megs, you can feel the impact. Most artists would have had Megatron standing absolutely erect, but see how Johnson adds some realism to it by actually having Megatron slightly bent forward bracing himself. I mean, it may not seem like a big deal, but that fine detail adds a lot, IMO.

Another case in point. That fourth panel on the second page above, where Megs is punching Grimlock. See how Johnson has Megs leaning with the punch? Again, may not seem like much, but that slight stance really adds impact to the punch, like you know Grims must have gotten hit hard because Megs puts his body into it. That's what I mean about movment in Johnson's work. Definitely not nostalgia, as it holds up better than any TF work artistically to date.

And that last panel on the first page. You want cool perspective? Johnson gets clever by giving us a shot of Megs and Grimlock from the ground up surrounded by a ring of fire. Damn! How cool is that! (Sorry, I get so excited about these two issues).

Johnson knows best use of body posture to convey action. That first panel on the second row, see how the Bots are looking over a shocked Megatron? Notice the slight head turn to the side of Ratchet, sort of mocking in a way, like he's confidently got the upper hand.

These aren't accidental. These little details are fully purposeful, and in my book, pure artistic genius.

Thanks for the links. Again, i would love to hear Don or Nick critique this.
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Denyer
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commander Shockwav wrote:
See how Johnson captures each emotion without sacrificing the metallic nature of Ratchet?

He's drawing a human face with a slightly more angular nose and a helmet. The shots showing just Ratchet's shoulders and head could, with different colouring, be of a character guarding something and from a MOTU or Thundercats comic. (I'm thinking specifically of an 80s UK annual story featuring time travel and a young Mumm-ra, but I'm fairly sure I haven't kept those books and wouldn't be able to find a scan.)

Then you've got "character/object collides, with a visible impact zone obscuring what's behind" (something Su uses, possibly a bit too often) and exaggerated movement lines in the next panel. Both time-honoured 70s/80s art techniques, executed by drawing a human outline and adding boxes as a 'costume' around it.

Incidentally, I think I found the reason for Repeat Performances being rougher than Warrior School --

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/interviews/ddINTERVIEW.shtml?id=Budiansky

He's very good at drawing people, and that translates well into situations where the characters have to act/move like humans in suits. The weakness of the approach is seen in examples such as Megatron's back leg up there, where the drastic foreshortening wouldn't be obvious if applied to a limb that wasn't boxed.
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Commander Shockwav
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denyer wrote:
Commander Shockwav wrote:
See how Johnson captures each emotion without sacrificing the metallic nature of Ratchet?

He's drawing a human face with a slightly more angular nose and a helmet. The shots showing just Ratchet's shoulders and head could, with different colouring, be of a character guarding something and from a MOTU or Thundercats comic. (I'm thinking specifically of an 80s UK annual story featuring time travel and a young Mumm-ra, but I'm fairly sure I haven't kept those books and wouldn't be able to find a scan.)

Then you've got "character/object collides, with a visible impact zone obscuring what's behind" (something Su uses, possibly a bit too often) and exaggerated movement lines in the next panel. Both time-honoured 70s/80s art techniques, executed by drawing a human outline and adding boxes as a 'costume' around it.

Incidentally, I think I found the reason for Repeat Performances being rougher than Warrior School --

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/interviews/ddINTERVIEW.shtml?id=Budiansky

He's very good at drawing people, and that translates well into situations where the characters have to act/move like humans in suits. The weakness of the approach is seen in examples such as Megatron's back leg up there, where the drastic foreshortening wouldn't be obvious if applied to a limb that wasn't boxed.


They would look human, but that's where the coloring and shading comes in to add the metallic nature to them. Moreover, nothing in Johnson's work screams "muscles", a purely fleshy quality that Wildman used that looked absolutely ridiculous with the cheekbones and facial muscle-look.

You want, to some degree, to capture the human qualities of the Transformers because that's really how they are, with their myriad of personality traits and emotions, while preserving their appearance as robotic. Johnson is the only artist I know of that has found that perfect balance.

If you look at it as a spectrum, I would say its like:
Wildman>>>>Roche>>>>Johnson>>>>Figueroa>>>>Senior
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