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Vampire in Rug
Forum Zombie
Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 269
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 Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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I think the reason canon is important is because canon goes hand in hand with continuity. Or at least it should.
Just because something is non-canon doesn't mean it can't be a good story. However, quotes like this are just plain incorrect:
| Quote: | all idw angel and spike= canon
buffy season 8 and beyond = non cannon |
JSPoole, it's not up to you to decide what's canon and what isn't. You may not like season 8, but that's got no bearing on it's canon status. There are plenty of episode's I don't like. I believe that the episode "She" is the worst episode in either BtVS and AtS. That includes the comics. In terms of quality and enjoyment, I'd place "She" below "Beer Bad" and below "Aftermath." I think it's just that terrible. Does that mean it's non canon? No, Joss Whedon is the one who gets to dictate canon, not you and not me. Saying "season 8 isn't canon because I thought it was stupid" is exactly the same as me trying to argue that "She" or "Beer Bad" aren't canon either.
A lot of people are confusing canon to mean "the stuff that I enjoyed." Anyone ever read the book "Spike and Dru: Pretty Maid's all in a row"? I'd recommend it to anyone who enjoys Spike. It's a well written book with good characterization. However, Whedon had no hand in it and it's non-canon. The episode "Fool for Love" blatantly contradicts it. Does that mean that I can no longer enjoy the book for what it is? No. Does that mean I'd stop recommending this well written book to other fans? No. It's still a good book, it's just non-canon. It's not like Joss Whedon came to my house and erased the book when he wrote "Fool For Love" He just gave his version of Spike's origin story which happens to carry more weight than Christopher Golden's origin story for Spike.
Anyone is free to prefer "Pretty Maids all in a Row" over "Fool for Love." But if you say "hey, remember when Spike killed his second Slayer?" People are going to be thinking of Nikki, not Sophie.
If you want to say "the IDW stuff is canon, the Dark Horse stuff is not!" then I'm gonna say that neither of them is canon: it's my fanfiction that I wrote that's canon. Don't talk canon to me unless you accept Spike becoming the President and Buffy hooking up with Dawn! Those are the events that really happened after the show. See how pointless the discussion becomes if we can each make up our own canon? My opinion on what's canon doesn't matter. Your opinion on what's canon doesn't matter. It's Joss's opinion that does. Joss might introduce Jar Jar Binks into the Buffyverse and it might be the most stupid thing imaginable. I'd stop reading. But that doesn't mean it's not canon.
Also, my other point was that canon goes with continuity. Continuity is important stories like Buffy and Angel. Imagine if Brian Lynch wanted to use Doyle in "After the Fall." No explanation for why he's back, Brian just thinks he's a cool character that would work well in the story. And maybe he would have. Maybe "After the Fall: Angel and Doyle" would have been awesome. However it's wouldn't be keeping in continuity with what came before and without Joss's blessing it wouldn't be canon.
I thought "Old Friends", "Spotlight" and "Alud Lang Syne" were good. ("The Curse" on the other hand just plain sucked.) However, the "Angel" ongoing contradicts them therefore they've got no place in IDW's timeline or in the overall canon. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy them anymore, it just means that they didn't happen in terms of the character's overall story. Just like fanfiction, the canon story is not bound by non canon works. That's got no bearing in terms of quality. You are fee to dislike and ignore season 8 in much the same way you're free to dislike and ignore season 7.
| Quote: | | There have been a ton of terrible Spider-Man comics over the years, and those are the ones I choose to not acknowledge. I don't need the stories where Gwen Stacey and Norman Osborn were getting it on. |
I agree that there have been plenty of terrible Spider-Man comics. "Sins Past" is one that comes to mind as one of the worst, it's totally disrespectful to the character of Gwen Stacy and I choose not to read it either. However, unfortunately for my tastes, it's canon. If I got a job to write for Marvel comics I'd be expected to respect it as continuity and history for the characters. The only way around it would be to pull a retcon but even then I'd have to explain within the story *why* everyone previously thought that Gwen gave birth to Norman's goblin kids. If I was gonna change the canon to say that Gwen and Norman never got it on, I'd still have to justify it in the story. "Sins Past" is terrible, but it's canon whether I like it or not. To change those events in that story would require justification, I couldn't just contradict it in-story the way "After the Fall" was free to contradict "The Curse", "Queen of the Slayers" or every single other piece of fanfiction. |
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Lostsoul666
Comic Book Guy
Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 48
Location: A Dark sunless room
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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I've never understood why people care so much about canon. Especially when we'll talking about fictional characters.
Also just because a story is canon doesn't make it good. As I have said before I rather read a good non-canon story then a bad canon one.
I enjoyed most of IDW's Angel books alot more then I enjoyed the Buffy Season 8 comics.
I view the Season 8 comics the way that alot of Star Wars fans view the prequels.
It never happened 
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I rather read a good non-canon story, then a bad canon story.
http://vampfox.deviantart.com/ |
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Jean-Vic
Transforumer
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1488
Location: Blackpool, England
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Lostsoul666 wrote: | I view the Season 8 comics the way that alot of Star Wars fans view the prequels.
It never happened |
Except, and I hate to be the fly in the ointment, it did happen. George Lucas said it happened so it happened. I don't like Season 8, but I will not be extremely arrogant and ignorant by ignoring what Joss has created. He says it's canon. It's canon. Whether people choose to believe it or not, it doesn't change the fact that it is.
I don't mean to be rude or anything, but these people have created these things for us. I don't like Season 8, but JW came back and wrote it. He could have left both Buffy and Angel in the lands of forgotten great series, but he didn't. The people at DH put time and effort in. Georges Jeanty would have spent hours drawing those panels. And just because people don't like it they feel they can call the shots. We have no right to say or do anything. Like it or not, JW made these characters and is these characters and can do whatever he pleases with them.
If there is a story that isn't expressly canon but you enjoy it, there is nothing wrong with enjoying it. It's part of some alternate universe. If it's not expressly canon and doesn't contradict the timeline, hell, have it as part of your timeline if you will. But you can't say what is canon isn't just because it isn't to your tastes, but that doesn't mean you have to disregard the non-canon. It's just like the Antholgy of Interests on Futurama or fan-fiction. It's a what if and there's no harm in enjoying them.
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I'm so glad I'm an Asshole! |
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Double Dutchess
Transforumer
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 1122
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| S8 is canon, but I still feel free to ignore it if I want to. |
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sueworld
Transforumer
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 1213
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Double Dutchess wrote: | | S8 is canon, but I still feel free to ignore it if I want to. |
Exactly. And as for them creating it for 'us' I think they were doing it for themselves weren't they?
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"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?" - Angel. |
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Double Dutchess
Transforumer
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 1122
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| sueworld wrote: | | And as for them creating it for 'us' I think they were doing it for themselves weren't they? |
Oh, I think it was probably a bit of both. Still it's not exactly a "gift", so I have no problem with looking the horse in the mouth 
But I do take an equal-opportunity approach: I treat all the comics the same, canon or not canon. There's a lot of the IDW stuff that I don't consider to be "real" (in my own, private version of the Buffy/Angelverse) either. |
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Lostsoul666
Comic Book Guy
Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 48
Location: A Dark sunless room
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 2:17 am Post subject: |
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It feels like Joss created Season 8 to fix some of the plotholes between Buffy's timeline, and the Fray timeline.
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I rather read a good non-canon story, then a bad canon story.
http://vampfox.deviantart.com/ |
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sueworld
Transforumer
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 1213
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:30 am Post subject: |
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God only knows why.
To me It's always felt like a case of 'the tail wagging the Dog' as in I found Fray to be a far more inferior product then Buffy and I resented that Buffys story was tampered with to match up to Frays.
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"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?" - Angel. |
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