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Moscow Watcher
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Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 264
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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 Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| angeliclestat wrote: | | Moscow Watcher wrote: |
As to W&H, it depends on the circumstances. It the events on season 6 will take place in post-apocalyptic world I doubt there will be opportunities for corporative stuff there. |
True - but they havn't always been corporate. They have taken many forms throughout the years. The corporation is the one that fitted best into todays world. What will they manifest themselves as next? |
Interesting speculation. Yes, W&H was Angel's permanent enemy so it's logical to presume that it will be present in season 6 as well.
OTOH, according to various reports, Joss envisioned season six in a Road Warrior-like universe. People living in tribes and fighting each other for the remains of fuel. (I suspect Joss had a lot of interesting ideas when he had been doctoring Waterworld script and he wants to use them, finally.  ) Is there any organized activity? Organized crime? Organized entertainment? (Curiously, the only Mad Max reference in Jossverse I can remember is about post-apocalyptic entertainment - "Welcome to Thunderdome." (Buffy in Showtime).
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Deborahmm
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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This is very interesting.
I suppose it could go either way. We're all expecting season 6 to be a Mad Max post-apocalyptic scenario and that'd be cool because in comics you can do that without blowing your budget on special effects.
On the other hand, it'd be sort of interesting if Angel and his friends found that their sacrifice hadn't actually made any difference and that next day everything seemed more or less back to normal.
Of course, that'd be very disheartening for Angel and I'd be intrigued to see how he'd deal with that but maybe it would be .too disheartening and make Wesley's death a bit meaningless.
Hmm. |
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DihcarEM
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 676
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Deborahmm wrote: |
On the other hand, it'd be sort of interesting if Angel and his friends found that their sacrifice hadn't actually made any difference and that next day everything seemed more or less back to normal. |
Indeed, but don't forget, we already kinda saw that storyline happening. The Beast destroying W&H, and they were back up and runnning very quickly. This time i think it did matter alot more, simply because they destroyed the inside of the machine.
Altough another stumbeling block could be that Angel is the only member of the circle left alive.
I don't know if MadMax-style is the direction that Joss,Brian are going in, simply cus if you look at season8 of Buffy, the US goverment are pissed about what happend to Sunnydale and are blaming Buffy for it.
If LA was destroyed, wouldn't they be more pissed off about that?
Then again, it could also be like Joss said in an interview that he wanted both set in their own universe.
The only thing i'm certain of is that it will be EPIC  . |
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Deborahmm
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| DihcarEM wrote: | | Deborahmm wrote: |
On the other hand, it'd be sort of interesting if Angel and his friends found that their sacrifice hadn't actually made any difference and that next day everything seemed more or less back to normal. |
Indeed, but don't forget, we already kinda saw that storyline happening. The Beast destroying W&H, and they were back up and runnning very quickly. This time i think it did matter alot more, simply because they destroyed the inside of the machine.
Altough another stumbeling block could be that Angel is the only member of the circle left alive.
I don't know if MadMax-style is the direction that Joss,Brian are going in, simply cus if you look at season8 of Buffy, the US goverment are pissed about what happend to Sunnydale and are blaming Buffy for it.
If LA was destroyed, wouldn't they be more pissed off about that?
Then again, it could also be like Joss said in an interview that he wanted both set in their own universe.
The only thing i'm certain of is that it will be EPIC . |
Ooh, ooh!
:Bounces up and down:
I didn't think of that. Angel is a member of the Black Thorn Circle, isn't he? I wonder if that will be significant at all? |
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Shin
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Deborahmm wrote: | | DihcarEM wrote: | | Deborahmm wrote: |
On the other hand, it'd be sort of interesting if Angel and his friends found that their sacrifice hadn't actually made any difference and that next day everything seemed more or less back to normal. |
Indeed, but don't forget, we already kinda saw that storyline happening. The Beast destroying W&H, and they were back up and runnning very quickly. This time i think it did matter alot more, simply because they destroyed the inside of the machine.
Altough another stumbeling block could be that Angel is the only member of the circle left alive.
I don't know if MadMax-style is the direction that Joss,Brian are going in, simply cus if you look at season8 of Buffy, the US goverment are pissed about what happend to Sunnydale and are blaming Buffy for it.
If LA was destroyed, wouldn't they be more pissed off about that?
Then again, it could also be like Joss said in an interview that he wanted both set in their own universe.
The only thing i'm certain of is that it will be EPIC . |
Ooh, ooh!
:Bounces up and down:
I didn't think of that. Angel is a member of the Black Thorn Circle, isn't he? I wonder if that will be significant at all? |
When we were watching the final episodes my girlfriend keeped screaming they had to kill him too, because he was a member of the circle. She doesn't like Angel much since he slept with Darla. |
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Nata
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 581
Location: Boston, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Deborahmm wrote: | On the other hand, it'd be sort of interesting if Angel and his friends found that their sacrifice hadn't actually made any difference and that next day everything seemed more or less back to normal.
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I'd think that would be the best case scenario. For L-A and innocent bystanders, I mean.
I'm still conflicted on what Angel's plan was supposed to accomplish. They were not making the world better by their jesture - they were giving a finger to Senior Patrners, metaphorically speaking. So I wouldn't expect any positive change in the world after that. But there were hints that the world might get much worse - because of SPs' wrath. So no change would be good. Like no news is good news.
Their plan wasn't supposed to stop Apocalipsys (for more than a moment) or affect SPs' influence - their plan was to show SPs that they didn't own them. Show their defiance and unwilliness to be played by SPs. So the only positive outcome of their actions, the real "helping the helpless" thing, was saving the baby. Unless "show them that they don't own us" was also meant literally. Like Angel & Co breaking away from W&H and their contracts. In that case by doing that Angel's gang were helping themselves (like when Angel beat Lindsey in You Are Welcome - he helped himself).
I know it's a metaphore, but still - it's so ambigous. Because if Angel and Co were doing it in the name of all humanity, that they were the humanity - then there were a lot of bad things done in the name of it. Like Drogan, and Lindsey and Lorne - who died inside I believe after that.
And also there's the fact that Angel was goaded into this thing by Lindsey - who just wanted to make a big mess and maybe get into Black Thorn.
And the talk about "heroes who fight the world to change it", coming from Lindsey... Last season Lilah goaded Angel into the deal with W&H with exactly the same phrase. By tempting him to change the world for Connor. And Jasmine was doing the same. This catchphrase fell flat on its face in S4. And Angel going for it again... I don't know. I'm very interested to see the outcome of this, and it's very possible that the meaning of NFA will be subverted in some way in S6.
On the other hand - Lindsey was goading and playing Spike as well, but Spike ended up saving a lot of people in the process (Lindsey's visions were fake - but Dana wasn't. I think he got the victim info from news plus he was leading Spike to bad places in L-A where "some bimbos" were always in trouble). Plus if we count the amulet - if Lindsey was really behind it, then that one also saved Buffy & Co. So whatever selfish motives Lindsey might have, his advice/help could still lead to good things. So maybe Angel was right to follow Lindsey's ideas. |
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DihcarEM
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 676
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Nata wrote: |
I'd think that would be the best case scenario. For L-A and innocent bystanders, I mean.
I'm still conflicted on what Angel's plan was supposed to accomplish. They were not making the world better by their jesture - they were giving a finger to Senior Patrners, metaphorically speaking. So I wouldn't expect any positive change in the world after that. But there were hints that the world might get much worse - because of SPs' wrath. So no change would be good. Like no news is good news.
Their plan wasn't supposed to stop Apocalipsys (for more than a moment) or affect SPs' influence - their plan was to show SPs that they didn't own them. Show their defiance and unwilliness to be played by SPs. So the only positive outcome of their actions, the real "helping the helpless" thing, was saving the baby. Unless "show them that they don't own us" was also meant literally. Like Angel & Co breaking away from W&H and their contracts. In that case by doing that Angel's gang were helping themselves (like when Angel beat Lindsey in You Are Welcome - he helped himself).
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Well, Angel's plan was a desperate one, we already knew that. He was losing his gang too quickly and saw an oppertunity in using it. And towards the end he knew that it had been a mistake coming to W&H.
Yes, they didn't stop the apacolypse, but they did get their message across, which has always been; "We(humans) might f!"k up alot of times,make mistakes,ect but it is our choice to do so." Free will and not being controlled.
Who knows what the SP will do, so far all we know is that they will try everthing to destroy Spike,Angel and his gang. They might or might not stop afterwards.
| Quote: | I know it's a metaphore, but still - it's so ambigous. Because if Angel and Co were doing it in the name of all humanity, that they were the humanity - then there were a lot of bad things done in the name of it. Like Drogan, and Lindsey and Lorne - who died inside I believe after that.
And also there's the fact that Angel was goaded into this thing by Lindsey - who just wanted to make a big mess and maybe get into Black Thorn.
And the talk about "heroes who fight the world to change it", coming from Lindsey... Last season Lilah goaded Angel into the deal with W&H with exactly the same phrase. By tempting him to change the world for Connor. And Jasmine was doing the same. This catchphrase fell flat on its face in S4. And Angel going for it again... I don't know. I'm very interested to see the outcome of this, and it's very possible that the meaning of NFA will be subverted in some way in S6.
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Yeah, you also have to see it trough Angel's eyes, he's a leader that believes that succes,victory is more important then how you get it, the way you achieve it. Like i said Buffy would have never done that, two very different leaders. Which is right,wrong, we don't know, it all depends on your own morals,believes.
And Spike knew that this big fight was coming, one of the reason he stayed. Yet, Angel also jumpstarted this confrontation.
| Quote: | Ooh, ooh!
:Bounces up and down:
I didn't think of that. Angel is a member of the Black Thorn Circle, isn't he? I wonder if that will be significant at all? |
Yep, i'm also curious to wether it will be adressed in the comics, it's a pretty big issue. |
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Shin
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| I think the whole idea of the plan was to weaken the SP and to show them they weren't owned by them both. I also think Angel had in mind that they would only attack Team Angel, because they like their influence on people too much. Also there was no apocalypse from the SP, it was a metaphor for the corruption of humanity WR&H spreads. |
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DihcarEM
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 676
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| Shin wrote: | | Also there was no apocalypse from the SP, it was a metaphor for the corruption of humanity WR&H spreads. |
The apocalypse was there, just like Lindsey said: a gong wasn't going to go off to make it clear that it had started nor that we were losing. It's corrupting the people,society from the inside out, a simple thing as seeing someone in trouble on the street and not helping. It wasn't like on Buffy, that an army of demons would try to take over by force. |
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Shin
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Joined: 25 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| DihcarEM wrote: | | Shin wrote: | | Also there was no apocalypse from the SP, it was a metaphor for the corruption of humanity WR&H spreads. |
The apocalypse was there, just like Lindsey said: a gong wasn't going to go off to make it clear that it had started nor that we were losing. It's corrupting the people,society from the inside out, a simple thing as seeing someone in trouble on the street and not helping. It wasn't like on Buffy, that an army of demons would try to take over by force. |
Yeah, but it wasn't supposed to be the destruction of the world like a normal apocalypse, but just pure corruption. |
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Deborahmm
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Shin wrote: | | Deborahmm wrote: | | DihcarEM wrote: | | Deborahmm wrote: |
On the other hand, it'd be sort of interesting if Angel and his friends found that their sacrifice hadn't actually made any difference and that next day everything seemed more or less back to normal. |
Indeed, but don't forget, we already kinda saw that storyline happening. The Beast destroying W&H, and they were back up and runnning very quickly. This time i think it did matter alot more, simply because they destroyed the inside of the machine.
Altough another stumbeling block could be that Angel is the only member of the circle left alive.
I don't know if MadMax-style is the direction that Joss,Brian are going in, simply cus if you look at season8 of Buffy, the US goverment are pissed about what happend to Sunnydale and are blaming Buffy for it.
If LA was destroyed, wouldn't they be more pissed off about that?
Then again, it could also be like Joss said in an interview that he wanted both set in their own universe.
The only thing i'm certain of is that it will be EPIC . |
Ooh, ooh!
:Bounces up and down:
I didn't think of that. Angel is a member of the Black Thorn Circle, isn't he? I wonder if that will be significant at all? |
When we were watching the final episodes my girlfriend keeped screaming they had to kill him too, because he was a member of the circle. She doesn't like Angel much since he slept with Darla. |
Heh! I like him a lot better since he slept with Darla. |
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Deborahmm
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I suppose it's very difficult to discuss the ending of AtS in lots of ways because it's fairly certain it wouldn't have ended the way it did if the show hadn't been cancelled.
Angel's (and the others') actions at the end there are very heroic if looked at in one way - they killed some very evil people and made things difficult for Wolfram & Hart for at least a short time. However, if looked at in another way, they seem like an act of despair, as people have said, the only way to fight back is to show them they don't own us, even if it means we all die in the process.
So the ending works very well as a metaphor - the fight is eternal, don't let the bastards bring you down etc etc - but when the story continues it all becomes a lot more problematic.
For instance, there are some very dodgy moral decisions to deal with - the betrayal and death of Drogyn first among them, which I feel must weigh on Angel's conscience a lot. Was such an horrific act actually worth it if all they did was stop Wolfram & Hart for a day or so? Etc.
I'd like to see these things dealt with but I'm unsure whether it'll be possible in the comic book medium - plus it doesn't help that Angel himself is such an opaque character in many ways. He doesn't tell people what he's thinking and having him wandering around brooding away to himself isn't that interesting (as we found out in The Curse). I'm really looking forward to seeing how Brian will write him. |
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Moscow Watcher
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Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 264
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Shin wrote: | | I think the whole idea of the plan was to weaken the SP and to show them they weren't owned by them both. I also think Angel had in mind that they would only attack Team Angel, because they like their influence on people too much. Also there was no apocalypse from the SP, it was a metaphor for the corruption of humanity WR&H spreads. |
I think we'll find out in the next season if Angel's team had really unleashed an apocalypse. When the show's budget is unlimited the possibility of various global catastrophes are much richer.
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Nata
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Shin wrote: | | I think the whole idea of the plan was to weaken the SP and to show them they weren't owned by them both. I also think Angel had in mind that they would only attack Team Angel, because they like their influence on people too much. Also there was no apocalypse from the SP, it was a metaphor for the corruption of humanity WR&H spreads. |
I agree. Yes, I think Angel hoped that this business will be between his team and SPs, not between SPs and the whole world. So no change in the world post-NFA would mean that the fight stayed the way Angel intended. Just between them and SPs.
But on the other hand - yes, it's also a metaphore for corruption of humanity. And showing in Angel's team, on behalf of humanity, that they will fight it, they won't let corruption take over without a fight. But again, if we consider entire NFA as metaphore, then how is Drogan and Lindsey/Lorne fit into fighting evil and corruption - those were acts increasing corruption/evil in the world. It's still murky for me.
I guess I see it in a different way: to fight evil in humanity doesn't mean killing bad guys/things, but promoting good in people. Like helping the helpless. It's what Angel understood in "Epiphany", but it seemedd he lost it sinse then. It's what Anne was doing in NFA.
As for Drogan - I came to not blaming Angel for it too much. It was a tragic accident. Angel didn't know Hamilton would bring Drogan to BT. Angel thought that Fred's "sacrifice" would be enough. He didn't have a choice with Drogan - as he told the gang, otherwise they both would be killed and for nothing, his plan would be busted. Also Drogan was like 1000 yr old and a warrior, he choose the life of danger. Hardly an innocent.
But Lindsey/Lorne setup - that bothers me much more. That was totally by Angel's choice, and that was an execution. And we've seen a lot of executions by Angel in that year - including humans, and that was, I thought, the sign of W&H corruption. Fight corruption with more corrpution? Doesn't work on a metaphorical level.
OK, the last thing, before I forget. Freedom of choice. I thought that Angels' signing away of shanshue was also about this. Also a finger to the Powers and SPs, in a way. He wanted out of the game, to be his own man and not a pawn for various forces. Just do what he thinks it's right. Stop being a "signified monkey". |
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Deborahmm
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Nata wrote: |
As for Drogan - I came to not blaming Angel for it too much. It was a tragic accident. Angel didn't know Hamilton would bring Drogan to BT. Angel thought that Fred's "sacrifice" would be enough. He didn't have a choice with Drogan - as he told the gang, otherwise they both would be killed and for nothing, his plan would be busted. Also Drogan was like 1000 yr old and a warrior, he choose the life of danger. Hardly an innocent.
But Lindsey/Lorne setup - that bothers me much more. That was totally by Angel's choice, and that was an execution. And we've seen a lot of executions by Angel in that year - including humans, and that was, I thought, the sign of W&H corruption. Fight corruption with more corrpution? Doesn't work on a metaphorical level.
OK, the last thing, before I forget. Freedom of choice. I thought that Angels' signing away of shanshue was also about this. Also a finger to the Powers and SPs, in a way. He wanted out of the game, to be his own man and not a pawn for various forces. Just do what he thinks it's right. Stop being a "signified monkey". |
I'm not sure I can agree that Drogyn wasn't an innocent in this just because of who he was. He was certainly very much a victim and Angel could have backed out and chosen not to kill him, and he didn't. It strikes me a very murky moral choice - one that's typical of AtS as a series, becuase it's all about the grey areas. Is it worth sacrificing the life of one innocent person if the result is the destruction of greater evil? Angel decided yes but surely it should still bother him. After all, it's not as if Drogyn was a willing sacrifice.
However, be that as it may, I think you're right abuot the Shanshu. Basically, clinging to that only ties Angel down. After signing it away, he's a free man not dependent on anything or anyone.
I happen to think he already got the shanshu anyway and that its name is Connor. |
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